In the latest episode of The Envelope video podcast, “The Last Showgirl” star Pamela Anderson reflects on what she’s learned from a life in the spotlight and John Magaro delves into the process of making journalism drama “September 5.”
Kelvin Washinton: Welcome back to The Envelope. I’m Kelvin Washington. Happy to be here with you alongside Mark Olsen and Yvonne Villareal. Another week of some great films, some great folks who are participants in these films. We’ll go to you, Yvonne. Let’s start with Pamela Anderson and “The Last Showgirl.”
Yvonne Villarreal: So this film is set against the backdrop of Sin City, and Pamela plays Shelly, this veteran showgirl who is sort of at this crossroads in her life when this Vegas show that she’s appeared in for years is coming to an end. So she has to sort of figure out what comes next for her. The film is directed by Gia Coppola, and it really sort of marks a reframing for Pamela beyond her sort of sex symbol status. You know, she’s able to tackle serious subject matter and she gives a really tender performance in this film.
Washington: Looking forward to seeing her. As you mentioned, it’s kind of a different role. I mean, it starts off, as you mentioned, just the profession of the character, but I’m sure there’s much many more layers to this and her role and character in this. All right, Mark, going to you with John Magaro, “September 5” — not “fifth,” “five.”
Mark Olsen: This is really up for debate even amongst those involved in the movie, but officially “September 5.” So this is a dramatization of the 1972 Olympics hostage crisis, but takes a very specific look, where it’s set in the control room of ABC Sports, who were there in Munich for live coverage of the Olympics and suddenly found themselves thrust onto the world stage of telling this gripping, gripping story. And this is like a behind-the-scenes look [at] that. And John Magaro, who I spoke to, he plays Geoffrey Mason, who was a sort of a newbie TV director, was meant to be covering sort of an off day of the Olympics and is sort of thrust into having to deal with this very tense moment. And the movie gets into, you know, how do they make certain decisions? What are they going to show, what they’re not going to show? How are they going to get that footage? How are they not going to get that footage?
The movie’s directed by Tim Fehlbaum, who’s a Swiss filmmaker. He’s made a few other movies, but this is really by far the one that’s garnered the most attention here in the United States. And John is kind of a journeyman actor —actually, funny enough, was an extra in the movie “Munich,” which also was about the Olympic hostage crisis. And so how far he has come from that role to this one, it’s just a really exciting journey.
Villarreal: I think it makes sense to you that we’re pairing these together because I feel like news is at this crossroads, this existential moment. So they’re going to vibe off each other, I feel like.
Washington: This is a great point. I had a chance to talk to Peter Sarsgaard, also in “September 5,” and he echoes that. Just the way we go about what we see on social media, what’s being put out there, how do we balance that? Have we gone too far? Should we show more or less? Really interesting conversation.
But let’s start off with you, Yvonne and Pamela Anderson in “The Last Showgirl.”
Villarreal: You play Shelly, a longtime showgirl who must figure out her life again when the show she’s been in for years is coming to an end. Director Gia Coppola has said that she cast you after seeing your documentary, “Pamela: A Love Story.” When you read the script, was it clear to you that you were made for this role? What were the parallels that you saw with your experience in the entertainment industry?
Anderson: Well, I know somebody else probably could have played this character, but I when I read it, I was like, “Nobody can play this but me. I have to do this. It’s life or death.” I could hear her voice. I could see what this movie was. So many parts of it really resonated with me. Of course, the nostalgia and the glamour and the showgirl element of all of it and being bedazzled head to toe looks like a lot of fun. But the mother-daughter story and — I mean so much of it. It was just the first really great script I’ve ever read, outside of Roxie in “Chicago” when I came on Broadway. But this was the first film script I ever read that I really resonated with, and I just was so relieved that I was given the opportunity to kind of pour my whole life into this.
Villarreal: Take me back to the moment you’re told you’re being considered for this. What goes through Pamela Anderson’s mind?
Anderson: It kind of took a little bit of a road to get to me. It was sent to an old agent who turned it down within an hour. But then Gia Coppola said, “There’s no way Pamela has read it if she’s just turned it down within an hour.” So she contacted my son, Brandon Thomas Lee, the wonderful producer, and he sent it to me. And so I read it and I just was making pickles, making jam [from] my garden. I was kind of reassessing some of the choices I’d made in my life. And I was kind of going through a transition, too, thinking maybe I just was never going to be able to show what I’ve got or see what I’m made of. And when I read the script, I was just like, “Gosh, this is it. This is it. This is my chance to do something, and just do something as best I can.” I’m so grateful for it. And then I called her — we Zoomed — and I said, “I can do this.” And she goes, “No, I know you can do this. This is why I’ve been looking for you.” We were both selling each other. It was a really funny Zoom call. Even when she said I was doing it, it didn’t feel real. And then I just started working on it like crazy.
Villarreal: What did Gia articulate to you as to why she felt strongly that this [role] was for you?
Anderson: She said she had noticed when she watched my documentary that I was a woman just aching to express herself creatively and that I had so much to draw from. I loved movies and film and poetry and philosophy. And I read a lot. And she was like, “This is really kind of an interesting woman.” She had the vision, which I think is such a skill because she could weed through the nonsense and see me as an artist, which I’m forever grateful.
Villarreal: Shelly, as we see in the film, really talks about how she finds joy in what she does and how this show has, in many ways, defined her. But she is at this juncture where she has to rediscover herself and figure out who she is away from this place. And like you said, you were at a similar juncture. What do you remember about navigating that?
Anderson: I was looking at my own life and thinking: I don’t want to be defined by what has happened to me. I want to be defined by what I do. And so there are parallels in our stories, but [there’s] also big differences. And I could really empathize with her and putting her dreams first and thinking she never abandoned her daughter. She was doing what she thought was best for her, even though she had let the neighbors raise her. She knew that [her daughter] was in a better place. I always say you’re going to meet your adult children and beg forgiveness because there’s no perfect way to raise a child. If you come from your heart, that’s the best way to go. And she’s all heart; wears her heart on her sleeve, is kind of a mess and makes mistakes. But she’s not a pushover. I could resonate with that too. I just loved the challenge. I thought that I could play this character with a lot of nuance and layers and really pour everything — all my life experience from childhood till now — into this character. There was a place for it all. And so I feel like it actually was such a relief to me. I felt like I could breathe after I did this film, I felt like, “At least it’s somewhere.” It’s something I can never write enough about or go to therapy enough about or talk to a good girlfriend enough about. I needed somewhere to put it. And so I was really grateful for this. And in between just playing Roxie in “Chicago” on Broadway and bringing that kind of backstage banter was a warm up for “The Last Showgirl.”
Villarreal: From the moment that you are told this is your role to shooting, how long was that gap? How did you spend that time prepping?
Anderson: Not long. I prepared a lot. I’m a hard worker when it comes to the roles I want to play, especially lately. And I work with a great acting teacher, Ivana Chubbuck. And we started going through it and I prepared for it like I prepared for a play because we only had 18 days to shoot the film. And so I knew I had to have it all in me — not just in me, embedded in me. Before I even got to Las Vegas, I had it in my mind what I wanted to do. But then, of course, it’s the director and you work with her and we try different things. Also, the cast. I just was wanted to be super prepared but not [so] over-prepared that I wasn’t flexible. I wanted to just come there with as much possibility and as much as I could.
Villarreal: What did that look like? What did that involve?
Anderson: There’s no shortage of me watching movies. I’m a big Criterion Channel junkie. I just raided their closet the other day and I have all my favorite films. [John] Cassavetes. French films, [Jean-Luc] Godard. I watched a lot of my favorite actresses, like I love Elizabeth Taylor in “Suddenly, Last Summer.” I wanted to feel what that feels like, to just throw yourself into a character where you’re risking everything and creating something memorable. I was watching actresses that I loved, even Gena Rowlands. And like I said, the Cassavetes films were great. I’m always watching films. That was part of it. But I also worked with a great choreographer, Gregory Butler, who worked with me on Broadway, too. So that was fun to kind of come up with [Shelly’s] audition scene together.
I watched a lot of “The Follies” or any Ziegfeld and showgirl thing I could find, and all the photos and references. We talked to the Jubilee dancers and the dressers helped us figure out the choreography with the quick changes because you take the head piece off and you put it on the mannequin — everything is done exactly in the same order each time. And those are things I wanted to make it look like I’ve been doing it for 30 years.
Villarreal: They came to your home, right? Diane Palm, who is part of Jubilee, which is sort of the inspiration for this movie. Talk to me about what that was like, getting the do’s and don’ts from the pros and having them in your home, giving you a tutorial of sorts.
Anderson: Seeing some of the girls in person, they still walk with such grace. There’s a showgirl walk. There’s a way to carry yourself. They talked about [how] they’re not burlesque. I don’t wear pasties, for instance. They are very proud of their art form and very proud of the times. Very nostalgic. They were treated like movie stars and and they traveled all over the world and were really revered and appreciated as the icon of Las Vegas, even it doesn’t exist anymore. Kate Gersten, who wrote the play [that evolved into] the film, talked to about 85 women on stage, 45 crew members, and, like, 15 people in the audience — you could just see it slowly disappear, that it just wasn’t enough, and it was replaced with all the circuses and Cirque du Soleil and things like that, which I love as well. But it must have been very hard on them. I’ve talked to men and women in this world, in this industry, acrobats even, who were like yeah, “What do we do when it’s all done?” You don’t think about it in the moment. You don’t have, like Jamie Lee Curtis’ character says, a 401k or things like health insurance. They’re doing it for the love of it. And usually dancers are treated fairly badly, actually — not as treasured as they should be.
Villarreal: How did they feel about this movie being made?
Anderson: I think everyone’s excited. So many people helped us in Las Vegas. We still have to do a screening for all the people that helped us there, and the girls. I really can’t wait to hear what they think. It’s really important to me. But I love that this movie is about the working class in Las Vegas, who it takes to make Las Vegas shine. The reason that everybody comes. And Las Vegas during the day is its own character. And I think that was really wonderful, to explore and see and think about who are the women holding up the rhinestones. They have relationships, they have kids, they have heartbreak. They have “the show must go on.” They have pets and they need to know what they’re cooking for dinner. And I just love that we got to experience all that through Shelly and through the other characters.
Villarreal: So many actors develop a process over the years of not only embodying the physical elements of the character, but the mental. And I know you said you were working with an acting coach. Have you developed that process for yourself, like having something like this to really sink your teeth into? Did you discover one?
Anderson: I’ve been playing characters my whole life. I’ve been dressing for other people, maybe in my relationships or just being anything but me. In the last few years, I really wanted to peel it back and say, “Who am I?” I have this fantasy-brain imagination. And so to actually apply what I’ve learned in acting class, but also reading plays — I was the one at Samuel French reading Tennessee Williams and Eugene O’Neill plays when I was in Playboy — I just didn’t know how to get from there to there. So I’ve always been fascinated with the process. I always thought the best thing you could do is take an acting class. You learn so much about yourself. And I was just so happy to be able to sink my teeth into it. But you fear yourself. There’s that impostor syndrome. You have to believe in yourself before others can believe in you. And you also have to take a risk. I felt like with this film, I had nothing to lose.So I really wanted to just give it my all and apply everything I knew. And it’s a lot of work, a lot of introspection. It’s not easy. It takes risk. I just loved every minute of it.
Villarreal: Tell me about that first day on set. What was the first thing you shot and how was that?
Anderson: The first scene we shot was around the dinner table. We all got to know each other really quickly and I just wanted to be able to establish her in that moment. We only have a few takes for shooting on film. I listen to music. I read over my notes, I do my emotional diaries about everything. I’m a writer. I really put that to work. And after that scene was shot, I said, “OK, I know who everybody is and I know who I am.” That was really great. But also, when we did the table read, that was when I met Jamie Lee Curtis for the first time. And I was terrified because she had just won an Academy Award. And I was thinking, “My gosh, I can’t believe she’s doing this.” And I know [she] knows everybody because she’s in this family of filmmakers. But I still was afraid to meet her. And she just grabbed me by the shoulders and she said, “I did this for you.” I was so touched. And I thought, “Wow, OK, this is a sisterhood.” Immediately, like we’ve known each other our whole lives. Any of that worry went out the window. As we were doing the table read, she was on her second or third spray tan, I think, and she was changing colors before my eyes. She’s fearless. So am I.
Villarreal: How about deciding on Shelly’s voice? In your documentary, when you were looking back at past videos, you said you could tell you were happy because of the tone of your voice. And I felt like, “OK, when you were thinking about Shelly’s voice, there’s intention here.” Talk a little bit about that.
Anderson: Voice is really important to me. I can tell even when I did the movie with Liam Neeson, [the upcoming “Naked Gun” remake], I knew our voices would be good together. I just have an ear for voices. And I feel like when I do see myself in a certain era, I feel strong then or I feel like I’m carrying everything really up here with a little bit of a brokenness. Or when I see an interview [from] back in the day and I was just so afraid, my voice goes higher. I think there’s a range of comfortableness in a voice. And her voice ended up even having a little bit of a lisp at times. I didn’t put too much thought into it. It was just happening. You do the work and then the character becomes the character and you’re the character. But I noticed it too, when I watched the film.
Villarreal: How was it to watch the film?
Anderson: We didn’t watch it until TIFF [Toronto International Film Festival]. Gia wanted all of us to watch it together at TIFF with an audience on the big screen. So there were a lot of tears because we really bonded. Everyone dove in headfirst and it was a labor of love for everybody.
Villarreal: Were you proud of yourself?
Anderson: I kind of was because I could see that I transformed and that was what I wanted. I didn’t want to see myself up there. I wanted to see Shelly. And a couple of the best compliments I’ve received from my kids, too, said something similar. But my friend, Daniel Lismore, was there. He’s an incredible performance artist, and he said, “It was Shelly.” I feel like I’m just scratching the surface and I want to do more. I really want to do challenging roles. I want to do something that people would never think that I could do or that I could never think I would do. So I’m really excited about it.
Villarreal: I know some of the girls stayed at the Rio, which is where much of this was shot. Were you able to?
Anderson: I have a friend that had a house there, so I was able to stay there, but I brought everybody over to cook together because I thought, “That’s a great bonding experience.” So I taught all the girls how to make my famous roasted vegetable soup. Putting them to work.
Villarreal: We could have been doing that right now.
Anderson: We could have been doing that right now. But you said you’re not very crafty.
Villarreal: What’s the specialty with your soup?
Anderson: Well, the roasted vegetable soup, I just think you need to get as many vegetables in as you can. And so roasted vegetable soup makes it kind of a depth of flavor because you roasted vegetables and then you add them to the soup.
Villarreal: Was Jamie like, “let me get in there”?
Anderson: Jamie wasn’t there for that part. She could only be with us for four or five days. But I think the younger girls — I just have a natural maternal instinct. I took my hooks around them and got them to work. They were fantastic too. And they’ve been around for a long time. They’ve been in the business a very long time and are such pros.
Villarreal: What is a Pamela Anderson day in Vegas like now versus 30 years ago?
Anderson: Versus when I was a magician’s assistant? I was a magician’s assistant for a few months in Las Vegas. I had a lot of wild friends come to visit me, like Amy Winehouse and Lady Bunny. I remember all the beehives in the front row. People couldn’t see past them at the show. Those are different days, but I’m glad I did it. And it kind of gave me a little taste of Las Vegas. I did it just for a short while. I had fire spikes driven through me. I was levitated 40 feet in the air.
Villarreal: How did this happen?
Anderson: They just asked me to do it. [Photographer] Dave LaChappelle did the poster. It was just really fun. It was kind of a family thing. My family, my extended family thing.
Villarreal: Do enjoy Vegas?
Anderson: I’m a big walker. I love to walk. I walk about five kilometers a day to 10 kilometers a day. And I did that every day in Las Vegas, too. I don’t think it’s too much different. It is a little bit different. But I’m a mom. I look after my kids. I’ve had this kind of unorthodox way of getting here and my lifestyle and my career. But if I didn’t have the career or the life that I had, I wouldn’t be able to play Shelly the way I did. So it was all worth it.
Villarreal: We talked earlier about the costuming. These are archival Bob Mackie costumes that haven’t been worn in some time. How was it to step foot into that?
Anderson: They’re heavy. They haven’t left the building in 30 years and they still had some women’s name tags in them. So I knew I was carrying a lot of women that had worn them before me. When you know people have done it before, you feel this confidence. There’s magic in the costumes. But we were wearing the headdresses longer than most people would wear them. Usually you’d only wear [them] for a couple of minutes on stage and take them off. We were wearing them all day and kind of leaning against walls. The one that I wore at the very end, there was a backpack and there was the whole costume and the headdress. They kind of jab into you, they’re sharp. They’re heavy. But it’s so cool to be able to wear them.
Villarreal: How do you make it look like you’ve been doing it for 30 years? Putting them on, taking it off.
Anderson: We just had to do it. I remember when we [were shooting] dialogue and we were taking on and off the costumes and we had to match it a couple different times. It was the choreography. You had to remember it. It was like a dance. The movie feels very musical in its own way because we didn’t have much time. We did really long shots and long scenes.
Villarreal: The film opens and ends with this audition of Shelly, trying to find another gig in a more modern show. And once again, her fate is in the hands of a man telling her, “You’re not what we’re looking for.” What’s a moment that stands out for you of something similar?
Anderson: I just could tell you so many things that I wouldn’t really want to end up being salacious headlines. You have to navigate it as best you can. I always felt like Miss Magoo, somehow I navigated it unscathed. But also, this business is full of rejection and people just disregard you. I feel this movie really is about second chances. It’s a hopeful film. And even though the business is tough, you have to protect yourself. You learn how to do that without becoming jaded or bitter because that’s no fun to watch if you want to be the hero of your own story. And I think that’s how I feel about my life and how I feel Shelly has navigated hers.
Villarreal: The heart of this film is the relationship Shelly has with her daughter, Hannah, played by Billie Lourd. It’s a strained relationship. There’s a moment where she comes to see the show and she’s really upset by it and somewhat embarrassed by it, not really understanding the other side of why Shelly made these choices. For you, what have your conversations been like with your sons about your image, whether because of choices you made or choices out of your control? How did you navigate similar conversations?
Anderson: I used to always think I would talk to my kids when it was age appropriate about certain things that have happened to me or to their father or to all of us as a family. And it always ended up that they would hear about it first. And then you’re just doing damage control and trying to protect them from everybody. Unfortunately, there’s no easy way and there’s no perfect way to do that. But I find we’ve had a lot of conversations about things now that they’re adults. It’s those teenage years that are the harder ones. But as an adult — this is why Brandon wanted to produce that documentary. He really wanted people to know who I was and not be the [butt] of the joke anymore. And I only ever wanted to make them proud. So when I saw them front row, when I played Roxie and they were there at the opening, and to see such pride in their face, that just meant everything to me. They’re very proud of me and very proud of this film. So, we’ve turned the corner, but those are hard conversations to have, and I think all of us will have to face our adult children and beg for forgiveness. There’s just no easy way. And kids, part of their struggle is their parents and that friction and why this, why that? They just have to know that they’re loved and that you did everything with love. Love is the only way through.
Villarreal: We’ve seen how important journaling is for you and what you’re able to work through in that. You mentioned earlier in the conversation that you did some of that during filming. What did the journaling look like in the lead up to production and in the aftermath? What did that reveal to you?
Anderson: I’ve always been a journaler. I think it really helped me a lot in my life. I could figure out what I was thinking if I could write it down. And I just write stream-of-consciousness. And people always say, “You wrote me a poem.” “No, I didn’t. I just wrote you a text. What are you talking about?” I have this kind of way that I write. And I think with Shelly, I just really asked big questions to myself. And then I would just write until the page ended. And then you read it back. It’s kind of like an exercise, almost. A certain process that you can do is replace different characters with different people in your personal life. You really can think about those people and write everything out so that when I’m doing my scene with Dave [Bautista, who plays Eddie], I could be thinking about somebody else at first; you do this replacement, but then you bring it back to the character. I don’t know, I’m still learning everything. I’m like a sponge, though, and I’m just very excited about all these methods of how to find the character and how to make all those nuances and layers real. So I experimented with everything, but writing was a huge thing. I wrote every day. I always write every day. But I wrote multiple things a day and I have my little journal that I’ve kept.
Villarreal: Was it just one journal?
Anderson: Oh my gosh. Just the stacks of paper. Stacks. And I like to handwrite stuff, especially for that kind of thing.
Villarreal: As you said in the top of this conversation, but also in your documentary: I want people to see me differently. You were one of the most famous women of the 90s. The level of interest in your personal life, in your marriages, in your body was intense.
Anderson: I’ve only been married four times, by the way, not six. Let’s just correct Wikipedia right now.
Villarreal: The level of attention that you’re getting for a film like this and your performance in this, how does that compare to what you’ve experienced before? How are you processing it?
Anderson: I’m just so grateful that I actually got to do something that I feel that I am capable of and that I can be looked at as an actor or as an artist instead of this one-dimensional person. But I fed into that. What I did was, I started getting a lot of attention on “Baywatch.” I started sharing the attention with animal rights and animal issues because I just couldn’t wrap my head around so much attention about such bizarre things like your boyfriends, your boobs. So I said, “I just want to share this attention with something more meaningful.”
Yes, I was used to a lot of attention, but it didn’t feel good. It didn’t feel right. I felt like I was so much more and I had so much more to give. No complaints. Being a part of pop culture is a blessing. It’s also a little bit of a curse, I guess, if you’re wanting to do more. But you’ve just kind of got to navigate it. Being in my garden and peeling it all back and discovering who I am and who I was at 5 years old — who am I? What are my original thoughts and my dreams? I have been living that way in my personal life, and I think that’s helping. Maybe people see me in a new way too. This isn’t a game. It’s authentic. If I look at it as an outsider, I could see that it’s all complementing each other and it’s all part of it.
Villarreal: Before I let you go, you do have a new film that’s coming soon with Liam Neeson, “Naked Gun.” How was that for you?
Anderson: It was a blast. It was fun to do that right out of doing [“The Last Showgirl”]. Liam is a legend and he’s so lovely and such a talent and so funny. You can’t keep a straight face with him. He’s so funny. But he’s Irish, everyone’s funny [in Ireland]. But he’s charming. It was a blast. It’s so much fun. And Akiva Schaffer, the director, just the physical comedy and the “SNL” guys that were there. We had a great blast.
Villarreal: The journal entries are more light with this one?
Anderson: Yes, but still it’s hard. It’s hard to do a high comedy. It’s hard to do drama. You take it just as seriously and you work just as hard and there’s a love story. So it was fun to kind of explore that, too, which you put a lot into it. Again, I feel like I’ve just scratched the surface. I’m just beginning. All of that was boot camp. Now I’m here.
Villarreal: What director or other star would you like to work with?
Anderson: All of them. I want to do a lot. It’s hard to wrap my head around it. I couldn’t believe that I’m in this position surrounded by these people, walking into rooms with Nicole Kidman and these great actors. It’s hard to imagine me there, but I’m trying really hard to be confident and walk up to people and shake their hand and be proud of where I am right now. But it’s definitely not easy.
Villarreal: Soak it up.
Anderson: I’m soaking it up and I’m doing my best to be around everybody that’s been my icons too.
Olsen: I’ve seen in some past interviews that you often don’t like to watch yourself in movies. Have you actually watched “September 5”?
Magaro: Yeah. I’m not a complete weirdo. I do watch everything. I always watch everything, but I tend not to revisit it much. And there are a lot of my colleagues who will sit through several screenings of it. I prefer to just watch it in a screening room kind of by myself. When I’m in a crowd with other people, I find myself focusing on their reaction as opposed to the movie. So it’s not really an experience where I’m really letting the movie hit me. Instead, I’m listening. Like, are they reacting the way I thought they would? And I just don’t find it a healthy thing for me as an actor. But I definitely watch it, and I go back and revisit it and try and learn the lessons from each performance to better myself as an actor. That’s just the way I go about it.
Olsen: How did you feel about it when you watched “September 5”? In part, I’m asking because the movie itself is so surprising. And so I’m curious what the experience is like for you watching the film.
Magaro: I think for all of us, the first time, no matter what you do — if you’re a DP [director of photography], if you’re a costume designer — the first time you watch it, you tend to focus on, “I could have done that a little differently or this a little differently” or “I wish they would have used this take.” But this one, I was very impressed. I was amazed how fast it went. And I was really amazed because we were in that little space, this tiny space. And I was definitely worried, “Is this going to be able to hold people’s attention and be thrilling, or is it going to be boring because we’re just in this one room?” And I was amazed. And I think that’s in large part because of Hansjörg [Weißbrich], our editor. He was able to create this tone, this frenetic tone that was just driving and kept you engaged. And I really have to give him a ton of credit for piecing this together because it couldn’t have been easy. There was a ton of footage, and it was a huge challenge.
Olsen: The events depicted in the movie, the hostage crisis at the 1972 Olympics, have been depicted in films many times — a documentary, “One Day In September,” and then, of course, “Munich.” You actually have a small role in “Munich.”
Magaro: If you can call it that. I was background in “Munich.” I had just moved to New York. It was 20 years ago, right? 2004, 2005. It was nominated for best picture in 2005, back when they had five best picture nominees. I was fresh off the boat, had a theater degree in hand, which [was] basically meaningless. And I was pounding pavement. You get your headshots printed, and and you staple on your resume, you send it to anyone you know, your mom’s best friend, doesn’t matter. And I sent it to background casting directors too, because I just wanted to be on a set. Up until that point, I had only really done theater. No on-camera experience at all. So I got a call saying, “Do you want to work two days on a Steven Spielberg movie?” And it didn’t matter how small the thing was, I was excited to be there. And if you watch, it’s in Brooklyn. I think it’s toward the end of the movie when Eric Bana, he’s all paranoid and whatever, and he feels like he’s being chased on the streets of Brooklyn. And if you watch, he’s crossing the street with his daughter. And then you see, I used to have really long curly hair. You see me, so skinny, like a little rail walking across the street. And I try not to look at the camera. And it was fascinating to be on a movie set to begin with. But then see Steven Spielberg from a distance, Tony Kushner. It was surreal.
Olsen: Moving forward to “September 5,” the film chooses this tiny sliver of the larger story. When you first read the screenplay, were you surprised by that? The way in which “September 5” chooses to just focus on the ABC Sports aspect of the story?
Magaro: I thought that was fascinating. That’s one of the things that drew me to it, because we’ve seen “Munich,” we know the aftermath. We’ve seen “One Day in September,” which sort of covers the media a little bit, but it’s a lot more than that. But this was kind of a revelation and was certainly an education for me. There was so much that I didn’t know about that day there. I keep hearing that from people who see it. They remember where they were that day, and they remember Jim McKay. But a lot of people keep telling me they don’t remember them coming in and saying that they were OK, and then that news being reversed. They don’t remember that it was 22 hours. And many people don’t remember that this was the first time there was an event like this, a horrible, tragic event that was shared in real time throughout the entire world.
Olsen: On paper, this is a really unusual project. It’s this relatively unknown Swiss filmmaker [Tim Fehlbaum], the film’s shooting in Germany, it has this international cast. When you get that as a potential project, what do you make of all that?
Magaro: Sometimes you have to take a risk. I like to take a risk in what I do. But I will say, when I was sent the script, Sean Penn was on as a producer. Peter Sarsgaard was attached. So I had a feeling there must be something here. And then I read those words and, yeah, Tim had done sci-fi stuff before, so this was different. It was German producers, who I didn’t really know; it was going to Munich for a few months. But sometimes when you read something and you feel like there’s something there, you got to take a leap of faith. I mean, I’ve done that a lot in my career. And Tim, it wasn’t his first film — he has done an English film before — but this is totally unique and new for him. So you take that risk and you trust in their vision. You trust in their words. And because I believed in it, I was willing to jump with him.
Olsen: And do you feel like in the past when you’ve taken that risk that it has paid off for you?
Magaro: To varying degrees. There have been some times where, no, it doesn’t. I’ve had my share of failures and things that I hoped would work. It’s a miracle any film gets made, especially nowadays. It’s hard. There’s so many ways to mess it up. So if you can make it to the finish line and get it right, I mean, that is a miracle of miracles. So yeah, sometimes it hasn’t gone this way, but I’ve also been very lucky. I mean, last year with “Past Lives” was very similar. An untested playwright who wrote a remarkable script, A24 believed in it, so they were behind it. But we had no idea where that was going to land. So that was just a complete surprise that it resonated so strongly with people.
Olsen: Especially given this is a fact-based story, where do you start? Are you big on research? What do you do to get started?
Magaro: Every job is different, and every source of inspiration is different. I always encourage directors to send me things that are inspiring them, whether it be art or music or books or pictures, anything. And Tim did do some of that, he did send me stuff, but my real key into this one was Geoff Mason. Having him around and having him to talk to, and becoming friends with him and earning his trust to play him, was a huge step along the way. I knew he was apprehensive. We talked, and you could sense it. You could sense this fear of this huge moment. It changed his career. He went on to be the head of NBC Sports. He’s revered in the industry. And it all kind of started on that day. But he lived through this with these other people, this team, this control room, who had been going back and forth between New York and Munich, setting up shop, building from nothing a broadcast facility that, for the first time, was going to transmit images of the Olympics to people all over the world. There was such excitement with that. And then all of a sudden, they hit an iceberg, in a way, and it goes terribly wrong.
So I felt like talking to him, he was really concerned that we get it right, that we had our heart in the right place, and that we honored all the other people around him too. Everyone else who had gone through it, put all that hard work into it. And I also sensed he didn’t want the spotlight shined on him so much. He would have rather it [have] been someone else, but he was the one who told Tim the story, so he was the one who was going to be showcased. But it was so helpful to me. He really made it clear. He painted such a clear picture of what it was like that day, how to approach it. And I wanted it to be as authentic as possible, as real as it could be. And I encouraged him that’s the way I was going, and I think that sort of put his mind at ease. And then when he saw how excited I was to do the research, to get into control rooms, to learn how to call a show, to work with the props, to make them like an extension of my limbs, I think he really started to see my dedication and trust me. And as he saw dailies come in, he just kept reassuring me we were on the right path and that it was reminding him of what it was like. And he’s become now a champion of the film.
Olsen: That must’ve been such a difficult position to be in, where on the one hand you’re talking to him, wanting to learn from him, take things from him. But then there’s also where you’re almost having to reassure him. And I don’t say talk him into it but be sure that he feels good about it too.
Magaro: In a way, yeah. But it’s totally understandable. I couldn’t imagine having someone play you in a moment like that. But what I’m also really thankful for is that Geoff was so open about it and open about his apprehension. I’ve played people where family has been around or other people have been around and sometimes it’s hard for them to let go. They want themselves portrayed in a very specific way. And because Geoff was more concerned about the other people, like this guy, Don Ohlmeyer — Geoff in this movie is kind of an amalgamation of two people. It really is Geoff, but on the day there was actually a director next to him calling the show. His name is Don Ohlmeyer. And Geoff was really concerned that he wasn’t in it. So just to pay the slightest bit of homage to Don in the beginning of the film, there’s another director who is going to the Alps with his family, who’s out. And we made that Don, because we really wanted everyone to be included and not feel like we were leaving people behind. So those things, I think, made Geoff happy. And we were able to do that because he was so open and honest with what he had been through.
Olsen: And you spent time watching current live productions, and you went to some football games.
Magaro: I spent two months at CBS Sunday Football shadowing the directors and the producers, being in the control room. Learning that language, because it’s so specific. And anyone who’s been in those rooms sees right through, if it’s not what it’s supposed to be. But beyond just shadowing them, I was in the CBS facility on 57th Street in New York, where I live. And I was seeing the wiring in the bowels of the building and the old equipment and and the graphics department, the sound department, the music department, meeting the on-air personalities. I’m a Steelers fan, and Bill Cowher is one of their hosts. So that was really cool that I got to meet him. My dad has passed away, but Bill Cowher was a legend to him, so I got to share that with them. And on top of that meeting, Sean McManus, who’s Jim McKay’s son, he ran CBS Sports, so [I got] to talk to him — a guy who was there in Munich, a young man at the time, but there and in the rooms and knew Geoff and told me what it was like. And it just gave me such access and such an awareness of what it meant to be part of that world and what it meant to call the show.
Olsen: As much as the story is focused on what’s happening in that control room, some of my favorite moments in the movie [are] every time you all step out into the hall, when you have these kind of sidebar conversations. Those are some really terrific moments, and there’s one in particular, later in the film, some mistakes have been made, there’s a real air of desperation to Geoff, and he says, “This is our chance to to get it right.” And I know for myself, I knew that feeling all too well, when you feel that a story is slipping away, and you’re desperately trying to get back hold of it.
Magaro: That’s right before they find out officially that they had died. There’s kind of rumblings of that, and they sort of sense that’s the direction things are going. Marvin, Ben Chaplin’s character, and Peter’s character, Roone Arledge, kind of have come to terms with what’s going to happen. They’re going to find out that it’s all gone terribly wrong. And then you have Geoff, this young man who’s hungry and hopeful and excited, trying to chase down every lead possible because he still has someone in the field, like maybe we could get a report from them. Maybe it isn’t true. But of course it is. And then he’s pushed into having to deliver that news to Jim McKay, which, again, talking to Geoff Mason, that is pretty spot-on to how that went down. Going into this thing, getting the news, the phone call going over and and being like, “Jim, they’re all gone. You’ve got to report this.”
Olsen: That’s another thing. I think we all would hope that if we find ourselves in a moment where we’re out of our comfort zone or experience level, a little over our heads, that we could rise to the occasion in the way that Geoff seems to in the moment.
Magaro: You’d hope. But I think there’s something in the blood of people who deal with crises as a job. Like a pilot is when there’s a problem on a plane — you have to keep your wits about you. That’s the training. And I think even though they weren’t news broadcasters and they were sports broadcasters, I talked to Geoff, there had been crises before, nothing like this. But when you have a sporting event, sometimes people get injured, sometimes you don’t know if they’re OK or not. So you have an awareness how to sort of navigate potential life-and-death situations. And also they were journalists at the end of the day. They weren’t the news team, but they had the training and Roone, he went on to be the head of ABC News. So I think once those gunshots went off, and they were aware what was going on, the training kicked in. And it’s like in “Sully” when he lands the plane, they knew what to do. They knew they had to stay on the air, and they were capable of doing it. Obviously, ABC News wanted to take it from them, but they weren’t going to give it up. And that’s why media was changed forever. If they would have given that story back to New York and not been the ones running it, it would have been covered entirely differently. And it’s wild to think that because Roone insisted on keeping it, that’s when media changed.
Olsen: There has been some conversation around the film about the fact that it stayed so tightly focused on ABC Sports, what’s happening in that control room, and doesn’t really get into the larger picture of the events that are being depicted. How do you feel about that?
Magaro: I think that’s a choice. I think it’s strange when people try and rewrite a movie. This is what Tim wanted to do. Tim thought about doing it [as a] much more sweeping story. He had ideas of doing this story that had dealt with the police and the athletes and the Palestinians and the Israelis and this and that. And really, in a lot of ways, because of budget constraints, and it’s an independent film, that movie that’s covering all of that from the Munich perspective, that’s a big studio movie. That’s a $100-million movie, probably. This movie, he wanted to make something about Munich with the resources he had. And after his conversations with Geoff Mason, he realized that there was something intriguing about this moment where news media was altered forever. I mean, it’s something we live with constantly nowadays. So that was a story Tim wanted to tell. It wasn’t about judging one side or the other in the geopolitical context of things. It was about telling the story of what went on in the room that day. And I think that’s kind of audacious and bold. Listen, we shot this before October 7, but that crisis is still going on. It’s been going on since ’48. It’s gone on for millennia, you could even say. So there was awareness of those sensitivities. But Tim was never trying to approach it from that perspective. I would argue this was bound to happen in media at some point, whether it was Israel-Palestine, whether it was an African dictatorship against its people, whether it was something in America — there was going to be a moment where globally a live tragedy was going to be shared. It just so happens that this was the moment it was shared.
Olsen: One of the things that’s so remarkable in the movie is that you get this great cast of characters, the rest of the crew, and you get the sense that they’re an international team that’s working. I particularly like a performance by Leonie Benesch as a German translator. She got some attention for her film “The Teachers’ Lounge,” but she also is someone who really comes alive in this.
Magaro: Top to bottom, we had an amazing cast, and I’m including our background actors in that because they were there every single day with us and they had to stay just as alive and just as focused as every principal was. And then even the other people like Benjamin Walker, who had probably, I think, the hardest job in emulating Peter Jennings, a young Peter Jennings. And then it was just across the board. And obviously Leonie, who offers the German perspective, which is such an important component of this story, especially because it’s produced by Germans, in a lot of ways as a German film. And that moment is still a big scar for a lot of that generation of Germany because they’re trying to pick up the pieces of this disaster their parents had given them. They’re trying to reintroduce themselves to the world. “The Happy Olympics” is what they called it. And that’s why there were no armed guards around. That’s why it was so casual. They didn’t think of the consequences of that, and they just weren’t prepared for it. That scene at the end that we have was a scene that took a lot of time to figure out. We shot it once before, and we had to come back to it, because we realized something just wasn’t right. And through discussions with Leonie, Tim and I, and honestly doing an exercise of what would you really say in this moment, we got to a place where it was just the right amount that needed to be said without hammering a message over the audience’s head. But she is such a brilliant actress. She’s so smart, and she’s so present. It was a great fortune to have her there.
Olsen: And do you like that? To get that chance to go back and try it again?
Magaro: I’d prefer not to, actually. I prefer leaving it, but if something isn’t right, that’s the great thing about film. You can have an opportunity to fix it. But also it’s sometimes hard for actors and directors and producers to do that because it’s kind of acknowledging defeat in a way. But if you don’t do that, if you don’t acknowledge that you don’t have it right and you’re trying to fit the square peg into the round hole, then you’re going to drop your whole movie. So I feel really lucky that we had artists who were willing to look at things with fresh eyes daily and in the moment when we were shooting it. And I think in a lot of ways, that’s why the film is so strong.
Olsen: To take a step back just a little bit. You’ve been acting now for over 10 years —
Magaro: 20 years. Professionally, because 2005, “Munich.” Yeah, I’m an old man now.
Olsen: But it does seem like just the past few years, with “First Cow” and then “Past Lives,” now with “September 5,” that things have suddenly picked up for you. Does it feel that way to you?
Magaro: Well, listen, I’m not sweating going broke tomorrow. And there were many times where I was eating $1 pizza slices and not knowing when the next paycheck was going to come. I’ve always been lucky, getting all the way down there, that something has picked up for me. And knock on wood that continues. But it’s a weird thing. I came into this, I grew up in Cleveland. My parents were teachers. This started as a hobby for me. I didn’t really know anything. I went to school for it, and then I really gained a love and appreciation for it. And I went to New York thinking maybe I’ll be a regional theater actor or something like that. That’s what I knew. And I fell into commercials, and I did some commercials. And then I started doing TV, and then I started doing film. And all that time I would go to this bar called McCoy’s on West Side in Hell’s Kitchen in Manhattan. And it was a place that on Tuesday nights — and since COVID it hasn’t quite been the same — a lot of journeymen actors would come to and play poker . A lot of people who were working on Broadway would come after shows. I was introduced to it from a friend of mine who I met doing a play in Pittsburgh, and when I moved in New York he was kind enough to introduce me into this world, and it was a place like Paul Rudd would go and play, Jon Hamm before he got “Mad Men.” Another friend of mine, Dylan Baker. Joe Lo Truglio. Truly people like that. So it was these people that I had seen and really respected and looked up to, because they were these journeymen actors, and I would just want to be around them, because even when I wasn’t working, I felt like I was part of a community of like-minded people. And I would just be the kid, bringing them drinks to the table like Spider in “Goodfellas.” Luckily, no one shot my foot, but it was like that. But it kind of became like my church in my early 20s, a place to go, talk to other actors, learn what it means, learn what it takes, and it really got me through some really hard times. And in a lot of ways, prepared me for where I’m at now in my career. And it gave me the fortitude to get through the bad times and continue on. But it’s been a journey. That’s how I always saw it. And luckily I’m willing to keep climbing that ladder and keep trying to get better as I go. And I’ve also been afforded a lot of opportunities to make mistakes and get back up and learn how to be a better actor.
Olsen: You mentioned “Past Lives” earlier and how that movie kind of took on a life that you weren’t expecting. What was it like to go through that, to see a movie of that scale go to where it did?
Magaro: It’s wild. I don’t even know how to put it in words. I mean, I had been at the Oscars once before with “The Big Short.” That made sense because that had huge people in it. And so that was a little less surprising that we made it to that. Something like “Past Lives,” with an untested director, we never thought — we were happy when we got into Sundance, and that was a huge win. And then all of a sudden we play Sundance, and then there’s this excitement around it. It was crazy that it went all that way. And what’s so special about films like that and from people I talked to about “September 5,” is when you make a film like that, an indie, where it’s all about the heart, where it’s not a commodity really — if you make money, you make money; if you don’t, not a big deal. Taking that and showing it to audiences and having them react so passionately, having them come up to you with “Past Lives” and being like, “That reminded me of the love that I lost.” And with this being like, “This reminds me of where I was that day. This is making me look at how I watch news with fresh perspective.” You hope to affect people. You hope to maybe change people in a way. I mean, obviously entertain people. But you realize how much more this can be.
Olsen: It’s funny, I just did an interview with [screenwriter and Song’s husband] Justin Kuritzkes —
Magaro: I just saw him last night. We were at the Governors Awards, and I kept going around, “I played this guy in a movie.” That’s what I would say.
Olsen: Well, that’s what I wanted to ask you. Did you feel that when you were shooting the movie? Celine has talked a lot about how that story is very personal to her. I’m just curious, did you feel like you were playing him in some way?
Magaro: Yeah, I mean, in a way. I think Celine cast me because, in a lot of ways, I remind her of him. And Justin and I are very friendly now. And we just talked. We’re going to have dinner when we’re back in New York. And it wasn’t that much of a stretch. I’m married to a Korean woman. We have a kid now. So that story was very close to me. And we had them over to our house for dinner right after I was cast. And the stories we kept sharing, there was a lot of similarities. And so that gave me a confidence in going into that film. But again, you never know how it’s going to land and I’m glad it landed well.
Olsen: I want to be sure just to ask you about your relationship with Kelly Reichardt. She’s one of my favorite directors.
Magaro: Who? Never heard of her. [Laughs].
Olsen: She’s one of my favorite filmmakers. The movies you’ve made with her so far, “First Cow” and “Showing Up,” are both so terrific.
Magaro: Well, we’re about to do another one. I’m hopping on a plane right after this to go and shoot one more with Kelly called “Mastermind.”
Olsen: What is it that you like about working with her? To you, what makes her special as a filmmaker?
Magaro: I mean, just watch one of her movies. You’ve just got to watch the Kelly Reichardt movie, and you know she’s special. She’s doing something nobody else is doing. She has a singular voice. That’s why she is the definition of an auteur. There have been many in the past, but nowadays I’d almost put her picture next to that word as a definition. And on top of that, she’s super cool. I just love being around her. That’s why people keep going back and working with her. That’s why Chris Blauvelt [works on] every movie she does. That’s why people who get a call, obviously Michelle Williams, but that’s why people who haven’t worked with her get a call and want to be there. She just creates a family, and she makes really great movies. And for an actor, it’s just fun to be a part of.
Olsen: One more thing that’s funny. I think it speaks to what an exciting time this is for your career that, I’m looking at the things you have coming up, and I literally want to ask you about all of them. So you’re also in Maggie Gyllenhaal’s “The Bride.”
Magaro: I’m not quite a nepo hire, but I will say I owe 15% of my money to Peter Sarsgaard. He’s the reason I got that part. Which I guess means I didn’t annoy him too much on “September 5.” That’s a wild one. It’s bold, and I’m really excited for people to see it. There’s no way to describe it. I mean, it’s like “Badlands.” I’ll try. It’s like “Badlands” mixed with “Bonnie and Clyde” and mixed with “Young Frankenstein.” Mixed with “Frankenstein.” “Frankenstein” mixed with a Gene Kelly movie. It’s nuts. So you just got to see it to believe it.
Olsen: And then the last thing, also, you mentioned earlier “The Agency” series that you’re in. What can you tell me about that?
Magaro: So it’s based on a really loved French show called “Le Bureau,” and this is the American version of it. It’s about the CIA. It’s kind of what it takes to be a CIA agent. It’s not about being James Bond, but it’s about the psychological toll of living as someone else and coming back and having to pick up where you left off after six years and your relationships, what that means being fake. You know, are you ever truly real? And Michael Fassbender leads our cast and he’s absolutely wonderful in it. Jeffrey Wright, Richard Gere, Jodie Turner-Smith, Katherine Waterston. It’s just a monster cast. And Joe Wright directed our first episodes, and I think it’s going to be really unique. And if you’ve seen “Le Bureau,” this is similar, but obviously it’s American, and it also is dealing with the current geopolitical crises that we’re going through.
Olsen: How do you like the distinction between doing a series versus doing a movie?
Magaro: I think for series like that, the lines have become so blurred. In a lot of ways, it’s like shooting a movie. It’s not like the old days of 22 episodes on network TV where you’re just pumping things out.
From the Oscars to the Emmys.
Get the Envelope newsletter for exclusive awards season coverage, behind-the-scenes stories from the Envelope podcast and columnist Glenn Whipp’s must-read analysis.
You may occasionally receive promotional content from the Los Angeles Times.
